Advantages Of A Flintlock Muzzle-Loading Gun for Long Term Wilderness living/Survival

[old4570]

My trigger assembly was pretty much caked in burnt BP ..

So I would remove the barrel from the stock
The lock and trigger assembly ..

I would clean the barrel and barrel bands
Clean the lock , and clean the trigger assembly
Then re assemble and put it away all Lubed & Cleaned ..
This took a good 1 hour to do a proper job .

On the other hand , the CF & RF was much faster ..
Patch the barrel , wipe down and a quick spray and put it away .. Maybe 10 minutes ..

 

[old4570]

And the original Q was Advantages ... And I cant think of any actual advantages over a modern fire stick .
Smoke poles can be a lot of fun , they can be satisfying , nostalgic .
But as far as advantages go ... The modern stuff rules the roost for a reason ..

 

[Le Loup]

And the original Q was Advantages ... And I cant think of any actual advantages over a modern fire stick .
Smoke poles can be a lot of fun , they can be satisfying , nostalgic .
But as far as advantages go ... The modern stuff rules the roost for a reason ..

One of my .22s failed to fire one time, the problem was the firing pin. Nothing I could do about, it needed a new pin. Had that been in a survival situation, I would have been left with a fancy club. No, I will stick with my flintlock 4570, but I respect your choice.
Keith.

 

[old4570]

Hehehehehehe ........
Anything can break , even BP .
As for firing pins , yeah .. The cheaper .22 break them .. I have broken several myself .
I had a very old Stirling ( anyone remember Stirling ? ) That was a cheap .22 back in the 70's / 80's
Broke the firing pin ..
Also had another .22 that broke a firing pin ... Was it my CBC ?
But buy a Bruno ( CZ now ) and what problems ? But any fire stick can break .. It's the nature of mechanical things .
The sear on my BP wore out , and the hammer would not cock ... Finding spare parts in Australia = Forget it !
I hat to recut the sear surface myself , ok I guess I could have had a gunsmith do it , but it was a bush-league job .
Stuff happens - That's a given .

Hmmm , Broken firing pins , worn out sear , broken scope mounts , I think that might be it for me .. in 41 Years ..
People break / Firing pins / extractors / all the time . If you were serious about a survival fire stick , you would have a spare firing pin and extractor in your tool box .
Because those two items are the most likely to break . For any fire stick - Rimfire or Center Fire

 

[old4570]

Oh , and I have lost count of the number of bows I have owned ..
And they break too .
I started archery early 80's and since then have not been without a bow .

 

[Kindlling]

Hehehehehehe ........
Anything can break , even BP .
As for firing pins , yeah .. The cheaper .22 break them .. I have broken several myself .
I had a very old Stirling ( anyone remember Stirling ? ) That was a cheap .22 back in the 70's / 80's
Broke the firing pin ..
Also had another .22 that broke a firing pin ... Was it my CBC ?
But buy a Bruno ( CZ now ) and what problems ? But any fire stick can break .. It's the nature of mechanical things .
The sear on my BP wore out , and the hammer would not cock ... Finding spare parts in Australia = Forget it !
I hat to recut the sear surface myself , ok I guess I could have had a gunsmith do it , but it was a bush-league job .
Stuff happens - That's a given .

Hmmm , Broken firing pins , worn out sear , broken scope mounts , I think that might be it for me .. in 41 Years ..
People break / Firing pins / extractors / all the time . If you were serious about a survival fire stick , you would have a spare firing pin and extractor in your tool box .
Because those two items are the most likely to break . For any fire stick - Rimfire or Center Fire

Have had to use a pocket knife to eject a spent .22 case many times in different .22 rifles .

I even remember one kids needing that way of removing almost every shot . Think thats common .

Not sure if a broken extractor would stop you hunting ?
They do wear down , and actually need a good clean if they are gunked up it can easily stop proper function.

I have a stirling 14p I think it is .
love it , take rabbits regularly , has a scope , has the original sights still attached for back up . Shoots where it is pointed , Less moving parts less can go wrong kinda thing.

Will ask about a spare firing pin now .

Parts are very common and so easy to find , I would buy another whole rifle actually , to have a spare .22 .

Someone has been giving air rifles a good rap here for survival .
.22 air rifle for rabbits and small game at close ranges ,
It won’t do everything wanted though , is extremely cheap to run , and importantly quiet .

I think slug guns have come a long way since I was a kid .

(Edit: the local shop has firing pins in stock for the sterling . Only 26$ Will grab 1 and stick in the rifle bag ).

 

[old4570]

Remington 541T .22 ... my current bunny stick .. ( Paper Bunnies )
I deeply regret selling my Bruno ! That was a huge mistake !

 

[Le Loup]

Hehehehehehe ........
Anything can break , even BP .
As for firing pins , yeah .. The cheaper .22 break them .. I have broken several myself .
I had a very old Stirling ( anyone remember Stirling ? ) That was a cheap .22 back in the 70's / 80's
Broke the firing pin ..
Also had another .22 that broke a firing pin ... Was it my CBC ?
But buy a Bruno ( CZ now ) and what problems ? But any fire stick can break .. It's the nature of mechanical things .
The sear on my BP wore out , and the hammer would not cock ... Finding spare parts in Australia = Forget it !
I hat to recut the sear surface myself , ok I guess I could have had a gunsmith do it , but it was a bush-league job .
Stuff happens - That's a given .

Hmmm , Broken firing pins , worn out sear , broken scope mounts , I think that might be it for me .. in 41 Years ..
People break / Firing pins / extractors / all the time . If you were serious about a survival fire stick , you would have a spare firing pin and extractor in your tool box .
Because those two items are the most likely to break . For any fire stick - Rimfire or Center Fire

I was talking about a flintlock, not a caplock 4570. If the mainspring or any part of the lock should break, the gun can still be fired. I thought I had included this information in the list of advantages. The hammer failed to spark on my .32 caliber flintlock one time. I simply heated it to cherry red in the camp fire & dipped it in my cup of coffee, problem solved.
Keith.

 

[old4570]

Yes , .. Flint lock was a development of matchlock after all ..
Butt ..

Flint lock .... The old saying - Keep your powder dry .
Not sure bout your design , but some , you got to be careful about how the rifle is handled .. Lose your powder .
And didn't people usually prime just before shooting ? More time for game to see you / smell you and bolt .
+ when you shoot , all that smoke to let game know your in the area .
I used to smoke out the shooting line @ Little River with my BP .
And how many shot's before you need to clean . Unless Ur using modern replica black powder ( They still do Pyrodex ? ) which burns cleaner .

We are talking preference here : But the reality is , something like a 308 will smoke the smoke pole in every regard .

 

[Le Loup]

Yes , .. Flint lock was a development of matchlock after all ..
Butt ..

Flint lock .... The old saying - Keep your powder dry .
Not sure bout your design , but some , you got to be careful about how the rifle is handled .. Lose your powder .
And didn't people usually prime just before shooting ? More time for game to see you / smell you and bolt .
+ when you shoot , all that smoke to let game know your in the area .
I used to smoke out the shooting line @ Little River with my BP .
And how many shot's before you need to clean . Unless Ur using modern replica black powder ( They still do Pyrodex ? ) which burns cleaner .

We are talking preference here : But the reality is , something like a 308 will smoke the smoke pole in every regard .

No mate, flintlocks can't lose their priming powder, even if held upside down.
No you carry the gun primed with the cock on half cock & the hammer boot on.
One shot is all I need, does not matter if the rest of the game are alerted to my presence. I have the meat to take home.
I use a smoothbore fusil with a 42 inch barrel, pretty accurate. One does not have to clean the barrel between shots with a smoothbore.

As you say, preference. I was a professional shooter at one time, my brother-in-law used a .308, I used a .45/70 Marlin. My one shot kill rate was higher than my brother-in-laws. But when shooting for meat for my family, I used a .50 caliber percussion muzzle-loading rifle. One shot, one buffalo. Kept us in meat for a long time, though I used to share the meat with a neighbour down the track a ways.
Keith.

 

[Randall]

This is the Girardoni air rifle 1780–1815..

View attachment 22730

This air rifle was use by the Lewis and Clark expedition western part of North America in the early 1800s.The expedition very well funded and lead by experienced and battle tested army officers.The reason that the Girardoni air rifle was taken along is simple.Once the gunpowder was finished there way no way to resupply,the Girardoni need no powder.Lewis and Clark expedition was away for some three years..Girardoni was no toy and could kill a man or large game at 100 yards.

This was a realistic answer to the issue of running out of powder the bush by a man of that era..Again there is no record of any bushman/outdoors man or soldier forging and making powder in the wilderness.

We can learn from history we just have to listen to what it is trying to say to tell us

In these times of poor supply for many things are you aware of the ammo shortages in the US and here? It seems that the logical argument of these old technology rifles is that they were developed, and manufactured pre industry. That means that the powder and ball can be made reasonably easily; think cottage industry - well ball was often made by the shooter, given that they had lead.

If we had a world wide halt to oil, that's all it would take to mostly bring industry to it's knees and put an almost instant halt to overseas trade / movement in general. The effects would be profound. So far all we've experienced are high prices and supply chain issues. These types of rifles, gunpowder and lead shot could be utilised and maintained, even manufactured quite easily under those non oil circumstances. Modern air rifles now are amazing - but they're dependent on modern tech and materials.

I just looked at that air rifle - pretty impressive, but not particularly robust. I reckon we could improve on that too even without industry in this time (or plastics / other derivatives of oil; basic o rings for example). A muzzle loader is still much simpler - there isn't much to break (I imagine).

I have no idea what modern propellant as used in ammunition is made of today - I imagine it is far removed from gun powder. I would be amazed if we could manufacture it in a no oil world. Brass cases, modern firearms, incredibly fine tolerances and huge pressures - these are all things of modern technology.

 

[old4570]

Yep , used to cast lead ball .. For the heck of it ..
Also for CF , I started to roll my own a long time ago ..
But ammo shortages .. Yep !
I still have cooking ingredients , so not overly fussed .
Though I might need to look at fresh ingredients .

I never flint locked myself , but I did read a lot of BP publications ( USA ) .
It was 20+ years ago now , but the most complaints I read about were directed at flintlocks .
Not that CAP N BALL cant have problems //
Nipples are a constant source of problems . ( Did you know I was going to say that ? )
And there was supposedly a better Nipple that took trick caps , that lasted longer and gave better ignition .
Not that you could get them in Australia .
There was a selection of caps in Oz , and from memory the Remington caps were probably the best .
They were a little more bulky , made a slightly bigger bang and were gentler on the nipples cos they transferred less energy directly to the nipple .
Thinner caps helped to crush / flatten / damage the nipples cos they transferred more energy directly to the nipple .

So if you Cap N Ball ... Lots of caps , and spare nipples .
But honestly ...
I would maybe go inline stainless 50 cal BP .. Do they sell those in Oz ?
Because I really like to shoot MOA or a heck of a lot less @ 100
What is that old saying - Only accurate guns are interesting !

 

[Le Loup]

In these times of poor supply for many things are you aware of the ammo shortages in the US and here? It seems that the logical argument of these old technology rifles is that they were developed, and manufactured pre industry. That means that the powder and ball can be made reasonably easily; think cottage industry - well ball was often made by the shooter, given that they had lead.

If we had a world wide halt to oil, that's all it would take to mostly bring industry to it's knees and put an almost instant halt to overseas trade / movement in general. The effects would be profound. So far all we've experienced are high prices and supply chain issues. These types of rifles, gunpowder and lead shot could be utilised and maintained, even manufactured quite easily under those non oil circumstances. Modern air rifles now are amazing - but they're dependent on modern tech and materials.

I just looked at that air rifle - pretty impressive, but not particularly robust. I reckon we could improve on that too even without industry in this time (or plastics / other derivatives of oil; basic o rings for example). A muzzle loader is still much simpler - there isn't much to break (I imagine).

I have no idea what modern propellant as used in ammunition is made of today - I imagine it is far removed from gun powder. I would be amazed if we could manufacture it in a no oil world. Brass cases, modern firearms, incredibly fine tolerances and huge pressures - these are all things of modern technology.

You can use Black Powder in modern firearms Randall, but of course you need the loading gear to do it yourself. If you have the lead, then you can mould your own ammo, but not sure if moulds are available for modern firearms.
Keith.

 

[Randall]

I've used them from a slingshot and they fly fairly well so I could see them working. Should be effective against birds at least but not sure about other small game as I think the nuts are too soft to penetra

 

[old4570]

You can use Black Powder in modern firearms Randall, but of course you need the loading gear to do it yourself. If you have the lead, then you can mould your own ammo, but not sure if moulds are available for modern firearms.
Keith.

Yeah , U can cast for 22CF up on to what ever you want ..
BP is ........ Dirty ... I would Pyrodex ..
But reduced loads with cast bullets has been a thing for a long time .
If going that rout as an option ..
Maybe a straight wall cartridge like 357 on up to 444 Marlin or 4570 in a lever action .